Why Some People Don’t Stop Running with Matt Johnson

B O R D E R L A N D S • Trail Running (00:00)
I was running all these miles. And I started getting sick. I had no energy, and I couldn’t figure out what was going on. Well, I wasn’t eating. I wasn’t eating enough food.

What was it? 50K? It was 50K. Okay. I have a screenshot of it. It’s sticks and stones. Sticks and stones. So, and it’s in Devil’s Den State Park. Okay. Decent elevation. I think I ran around five hours. But that was super cool. Like that was that right there where like that’s where I fell in love. Like I already knew I loved the trails from Virginia, but doing that, that.

Ultra distance, you know, like that 30, like hitting 30, I was like, oh my God, like I was like, I was like, this is kind of cool. And at that point I was riding a high from going sub three from winning the Des Moines half to winning this ultra. And I’m like, okay, like, you know, I think I could be really good at whatever I’m trying to do. Whatever this is. Yeah.

Now, as I get to know you,

the sprint car thing

it all together in some way.

It’s like, we have a hundred miles in military and Ben and I were chatting last night, like this connection between retired military and a hundred miler. That’s I was just talking with my girlfriend about. Yeah. But there’s still another thing, like you’ve still got some, you’re more multifaceted to me. Like it’s not as simple as you were in the military and now you’re trying a hundred milers. Yeah. But the sprint car thing is like, okay, you’re also like bringing.

bringing adrenaline to 100 miles in some ways, which is not. Yeah, so sprint cars are like, you’re looking at like 100 and anywhere from 110 to like 140 miles an hour on dirt in a circle. So like, yeah. So bring that with like two race, I think you did Leadville in 28 hours, if I saw correctly. This year, yeah. But I did Leadville 1 and I did not complete it.

So you’ve got all of these things sort of swirling around there.

the ultra, the fitness, the betting on yourself, the cliche stuff. Who was inspiring you at the time? Who were you looking to thinking, you know, 3 ,000 in the bank, making 1 ,000 bucks a month. Some people would feel that and feel like discouraged. You saw that as like game on. I saw it as like there’s one option here. Yes. And…

It’s a plan A and a plan A only. My plan B was literally going to be sleeping under a bridge until I figured it out, truly. So what voices were out there inspiring you? You know what I mean? Like who are the people? Who are the, like what propelled you? What podcast did you listen to? Like what were the things that were giving you that confidence in yourself? Yeah. You know, I found, I would say, you know, this was maybe like, you know, in my…

Subliminal mind, you know, not really like right there in front of me, but I found running Yeah, I went to Virginia and I found running but I truly found running because I found David Goggins and My mom was a single mom. Yeah, we were piss fucking poor. Yeah, like we went through the shit. Yeah, and I was a piece of shit growing up. Like I was a shitty kid And I remember looking at Goggins and like and reading his book and being like dude if that guy can

do that, why can’t I? And that’s probably something else cliche, but it’s true. Like it is so true. But not everybody engages with it and says, I can do that too. You know what mean? And I think that’s what’s special about David Goggins is that he’s found, like he’s called a lot of men into like intentionality. But you heard it, you engaged with it and it was like, this is what I’m looking for. And it just kind of clicked. Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. And that was really kind of, like I said, it wasn’t like front and center. Like I wasn’t driving to Austin being like, yeah, David Goggins, you know, but like.

that book touched me so well that that was something I carried with me all through 2021, leading into 2022. And it was just like, you know, if he could go through all that shit and make it through. And now, you know, he’s he’s wrote a book and he’s a multimillionaire and he doesn’t have to work another day in his life. Right. I’m like, why can’t I do that?

There was a lot of struggle which relates right back to The ultra distance right?

I’m so interested in your take on this, because now I get selfish. Like, all right. I’ve fallen apart for some justify. Like when I look back at my seven DNFs, my first 100 mile attempt, I had that same leg problem at like mile 68 at Zion. Like I was going into it, I was like, can I keep going? Can I not? I’m just not sure. I don’t know what it’s like to be at this high mileage. I sit down for a sec, try to get some good food in me, and I stand up and then my legs are gone. I can’t even like step up on a route. You know what I mean?

So I look back at all my DNFs, I think I can give you the story of all seven. Like I mean, cause they’ve they’ve haunted me, they live with me. Yeah, for sure. I get it. And the one, the one that I finished, like I can even say like, okay, now, you know, that was my third attempt. I finished it and I thought everyone after that was going to be great. Well, then I’ve DNF the next five. Some of them may be good reasons. Some of them not. But the thing that I’m on the hunt right now for is how, first off,

Like I start to really fall apart at like 55. 55 mile 6. Like really, like ugly. Like real ugly. And so one of the things I’m looking for is…

Yeah, you can fall apart. I have a my buddy Jeremy. He can fall apart at mile 40. Former Navy, military mindset kind of guy. And he can finish the 100. He’s got this switch that I’m trying to like learn, glean from, take from him.

First question, this late race survival, like how do I push, how do I push, how do I make my body fall apart at 80 and only have to slosh through 20 miles instead of it falling apart at 55? If we’re just looking at late race survival from a fitness standpoint, does that make sense?

There is a, do you have a truck? Yeah. Yeah, so there’s a device out there that’s called Sled Connect. OK. And it’s like.

200 bucks maybe. But I also did this before Leadville because my buddy had it. And it hooks in to your hitch and it’s like a field goal post. Hooks into your hitch and we were pushing and pulling trucks in the parking lot at the gym. Interesting. Yeah, so like, so we had, I actually have a, there’s a video on my Instagram, I’ll pull it up for you if you remind me, but I literally had a ratchet strap around my waist and I’m like,

pulling this truck in the parking lot. So, there’s devices out there like that. You can also buy your own weighted sled. Take it out to a park like we’re at right now. And the push -pull sleds. You get a car tire. You put a car tire, get a rope, tie it around your waist. So sometimes you’re walking forward and sometimes are you going back? Yeah, so I would do all three. So I would push, I would push, I would pull.

And then I would also like, if you were the sled, I would pull it this way as well. So I would push it, I would pull it backwards, and then I would pull it forwards. Just to kind of, you because at that point, like my hip flexors, like everything was so tired that, you know, I’m just putting it under stress even more.

one of the things that you seem to bring, the common denominator for everybody, though, still is a mental toughness. Yes.

And that also has been a weakness of mine, but I still have this ambition to get it. what is in your mind at the start of Leadville? Going into Rocky Raccoon this weekend, what are you, are you saying something to yourself? Have you made a decision? Like, I’m going to finish this thing. Like what’s in your head?

So the biggest thing for me is I truly believe like this is what and I wouldn’t say this is mental toughness this is what keeps me calm and collected. Yeah. And this is something like we were just talking about why I told you we just did this breath work and we were having a discussion after is like what is meant to be is meant to be.

And whatever is going to happen at Rocky Raccoon in three days is already set in stone. I believe that.

I truly haven’t. I was trying to find the lie there. I have never…

Toed the line and been nervous and been upset. You know, like I’ve told the line next to people, friends that are like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh my God. What am I about to do? You know, and they’re like, they’re like, why did I do this? And I’m just like, la, la, la, la, la, la, you know, because, because it’s just, you know, you’ve already done everything

so I think it’s I think it’s being able to carry a

You know, being able to tell yourself and being able to believe it when you say it to yourself. Unlike whatever is meant to be is meant to be. If I go out to Rocky on Saturday and I DNF, okay, time to find the lesson. You know, what did I, you know, if I go out to Rocky and I win it, sick. You know, I mean, great. But whatever is meant to be is meant to be. And I think that that’s the first step is approaching that start line.

with a mentality of like, I’ve done what I’ve needed to do to get to this point. I trust myself. I trust my training. I trust my instincts. I trust my faith. What I, you know, if you believe in God, whatever, I don’t care. I do. Like for me, it’s like, you know, I, I’m, I trust everything. Like, like, like I’m putting my trust in you. Here we go. That’s the biggest thing for me is like, is having that feeling first. Because you can take that feeling to mile 50.

You can get to 50. You and I just talked. You can go 50 miles. Then you get to 50. And I’ve been to the point at 50 where I’m falling apart, which is when I broke the leg in September. When I towed the line with three breaks and I had no idea. I just was an asshole and thought I was hurt. And I get to 50 and I remember, you know…

I called a good friend of mine and I’m fucking bawling on the phone. I mean, because I had led this race. Like, I was leading. I was in the lead. And I’m like, what do I do? Like, you know, like, how can I… I knew it was coming. I knew the DNF was coming and I think that it was just me letting that emotion out. And I was, you know, do I quit at 50? Like, you know, because it was an out and back. I’m like, how do I quit knowing that there is…

This is it right here, just about what I’m about to say. How do I quit knowing that there is a chance at success? You know, so like, here’s the thing. What if someone said, walk down to that bridge down there, there is a chance that there is a million dollars on that bridge?

They’re like 50 -50 shot, there’s either a million dollars on that bridge or there’s not. Would you walk to that bridge? Of course. You know, I mean, easier said than done. But for me, it’s like, I would rather, that’s where the saying, the risk over regret is what we said before this, before the LA one, before the saddle to CIRP 100. It’s like, I would rather risk it.

than to regret the fact that I never tried. Right. And… That’s good. And, you know, and it’s easier said than done. But to me, that’s what I came up with on the phone with him in that moment, was… How can you quit knowing that there’s a chance? Yeah.

And I think that I had that during Leadville 1. Because I knew when I stood up, it was done. I knew it was done. But how could I stop at 56 knowing that there was a chance that I could see that finish line? So I walked 50 kilometers. And I knew, I knew, like during that time when I left, I said I have to hold a 20 minute per mile pace in order to finish the Leadville 100.

And overnight I kept looking at my watch, 26, 27, 24. Everyone’s been there, right? Like where you see it. But to me, it was just me saying, like, there is a chance. There is a chance. Because I think that we undervalue what our body is capable of. Because as you probably experienced, you can be just shitting the bed at 30. And the next thing you know at 50, you get this like, whoa.

Because for me, when I called Bob on the phone and I was talking to him and I’m bawling, and I’m like, my leg’s fucked, I’m not gonna make it. And he’s like, there’s a chance, there’s a chance, there’s a chance. I get to 50 running.

12 minute pace, 54 to 60, I was running 830 miles after already bawling on the phone to him telling, you know, so this is about two hours later. I’m running eight minute miles. Now, I completely shit the bed after that, but, but, but there’s always, you know, yeah.

How was I capable of that when I’m crying on the phone saying, hey, I know that my leg is broken at that point, and then I’m capable of running those type You’re able to turn it around. What if I could have done 20 of those miles and I would have never known because I quit? What if I would have quit when I called him on the phone and I would have never been able to tell you the story now of I was able to run six miles at an eight minute pace, even after I thought I was going to quit? Right. So there’s so many.

There’s so many lessons in that. Yes. And… To get past the point where you want to quit and find out what you’re still capable of. Exactly. That you could still… Yeah, and that’s what I… I don’t know if you saw the other day, but I posted this reel with a caption, like, it was something that… I was just sitting there and it came to me, is… With what we do, I always was chasing the finish line. Yeah. And… I said, I became more…

as an athlete, as a man, as a human, when I stopped chasing the finish line and I started chasing what I could overcome. Hmm.

Because you learn so much about yourself. Like you have however many 100s that you have DNF’d, would you say eight? Seven of eight. Yeah, you’re like seven. Put some fucking respect on me. Yeah, give me some respect. So you’ve DNF’d seven 100s, but you’ve probably learned more in those seven DNFs than I’m gonna learn in the next four or five years. Right. Because I don’t, I’ve DNF’d twice. Right.

And I learned so much from Leadville, so much from Saddle to Surf. You’ve done that almost four more times than I have. And I’m thankful for each of them. Absolutely. But when it comes down to, OK, how do I not? Like, you’re OK. OK, I’ve learned enough. I don’t want to do this anymore. I think it’s carrying that mentality of…

What if, just keep telling yourself what if, what if, what if, what if. And that’s good. What if I go one more mile? Yeah. What if I go one more mile? What if I go one more step? Yeah. You know, break it, break it, break it down. That’s good. So much. Yeah. To where like you get to that point where you get, and you know the point where you’re like, I’m like, I’m gonna quit. Yes. And you’re like.

What if I go one more step? Yeah. Then you do that one more step. Yeah. What if I go one more step? Yeah. What if, what if, what if, what if? And that’s… Now that I think about it, I’ve heard that saying before in an Ironman. Yeah. There was a lady, she went up to a guy and she’s like… There was like a golf cart and she’s like, I quit. And he’s like, no, no, no, you don’t. You don’t. He’s like, I’ll drive a mile up. And he’s like, and if you want to quit, you can get in. Yeah.

And she gets up there and he goes, he goes, do you want to quit? And she’s like, I want to quit. That’s awesome. And he goes, I’ll drive one more mile. And if you still want to quit, you’ll get in. Yeah. You want to quit? I don’t want to quit. That’s awesome. That’s great. I’ll go a mile. And if you want to quit then, then you quit. Do you want to quit? I don’t want to quit. Wow. And he was with What a great way to break it down. Yeah. That’s amazing. Yeah. You know? I mean, so that’s something you need to tell yourself. And then on top of that, and I really, truly mean this, I would rather fucking die than quit.

Like, it, it, it, it, it, it. I don’t know what it is, man. I’ll just, if it’s just me, like, I was sitting in that chair. I was sitting at that chair at Saddle of Surf. And I was telling my buddies that were there, I was like, I’ll walk this whole bitch right now. Like, because I could walk. I’m like, but we’re going to be out here for 30 hours. Because that was such a, it was such a smaller race that like, there was no cutoff. Like, it was just a hundred miles. And at that point we were 75 deep.

It was like 17 hours, 16 hours, and it was like, maybe it was like 14 hours, I don’t know. Fuck, dude, I don’t even think it was midnight at that point, like, cause I was hauling ass. And I was like, I’ll walk, I’m like, but we’re gonna be here until 10 a .m. Like, you guys wanna be here until 10 a .m. and everyone’s like, uh, you know. So the consensus there was, why we did pull out of that was,

Number one, we knew that I was injured and I wasn’t just hurting. And we also knew that like, this is Saddle to Surf. This isn’t Leadville. This isn’t UTMB. This isn’t, you know, this isn’t Western States. Like, there’s no reason, you know, you send me to the Western States and I’ll snap my fucking leg in half before, you know, I’ll crawl that bitch. Like, but that’s the thing, you know, I think it’s just.

There’s something within you that you need to… and even laugh about, right? Like, when you get out there, you can almost joke yourself into that mentality. Like, just like what I… you’re laughing where you’re like, I’ll crawl that whole bitch. And like, I’ll tell people. Like, I’ll just… I’ll be out there and I’ll be like, I’d rather put a gun to my head than lose… than, you know… or, you know…

or I’ll pass somebody and I’ll be like, hey, I’ll see you at the finish line. You know, you can almost joke yourself into like, you can almost talk yourself into the fact of there’s so much about self -talk. And, you know, now don’t get me wrong, like Ludville 1, I remember like when I started in 2022, I was like, no matter what, I’m not gonna quit. Like I remember having that conversation with my brother. I was like, no matter what.

I will not quit. Do not let me leave. Because at that point I had never done 100. I’m like, do not let me leave this course unless I am broken. And he’s like, yeah, cool. So I remember one of the times during the overnights when it was raining and I was walking the 25 minute miles, I remember thinking in my head, I was like, I’m going to tell him that I rolled my ankle and that my ankle’s broken.

Like, you know, I was like, I’m gonna tell him that I’m like fucked up so that way I can quit. Yeah. Because I knew that I was like, I’m not gonna make it. I’ve been there. And I was like, I was like, so I’m gonna lie. Yeah, totally been there. I’m gonna tell him that this is going on. Yeah. And I was like, I was like, I’m just gonna text him and tell him right now so that way he knows. And for some reason, like I just talked myself, like I was like, no, I like, I’m gonna tell him at the next aid station. Yeah. And then you get there to the aid station and you’re like…

I’ll tell them at the next aid station. Yeah. You know, so and that goes back to the saying of just one more step. Yeah. Just one more step. One more step. Yeah. And that’s what I think it is.

And there’s power in being a cocky, arrogant motherfucker to yourself. Like waking up and… Because truly, I don’t… I’m not the best. I’m not even close to the best. I’m not even close to being close to those guys that are the best. And I don’t know if I ever will be. But I sure the fuck will talk like I am.

I will wake up and I will look in the mirror and I’ll be like, you son of a bitch, you are the best. And I’ll tell everyone that I’m the best. Because me speaking that out loud.

You hear it, you know? And the more, like, like here’s the thing, if you’re growing up as a kid and your mom is sitting there and she’s like, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, what are you gonna think? Well, fuck me. You’re right, right, right, right. You And it, but if your mom’s there and she’s like, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, you’re gonna feel loved. Yeah. Right? So why don’t we, there’s, why don’t we do that to ourselves? People don’t do that to themselves. Yeah. Right. To, to waking up and being like, I’m the best. I tell my friends that I’m the best. I tell, you know, they, I tell them that they’re the best. Yeah. You know, words are so powerful.

And if I go around and I show up to the start line of Rocky and I’m like, I’m the greatest dude out here. And everyone’s like, fuck that guy. And I’m like, yeah, fuck him. I don’t care. Like, I’m the best. I’m the best. And then you come in like 976th place. And then you’re still walking to the finish line. It’s like, I told you I was the best. I told you. So it’s carrying the humor. But really, it’s the funny stuff.

But it works. It does. It does work. I love that.

I finished Leadville. I remember, I finished Leadville…

I had on the Nike Ultraflies, the brand new shoes. Really? That had just came out. I actually got them before Leadville from Nike. Okay. And they gave me a prototype. And they gave me a 9. That’s awesome. And it fit like an 11. And I wore it anyways. I had 7 blisters on the bottom of each foot.

But just sliding through that tree. Oh yeah, dude. But me, I’m like, bro, Nike gave me these shoes, bro. I need to wear them. And so, long story short, I remember getting out there at 25, or I’m sorry, at 75 at Leadville, and I remember walking and I stopped. My buddy Austin was like, what are you doing? I was like, I’m just taking a mental picture real quick. Because I was in the most pain that I had ever been in my entire life. I literally, excuse me, I literally stopped. And I just stood there like this. I was like, I’m taking a mental picture. He’s like,

Of what? I’m like of the fact that I feel like I’m walking on fucking glass right now because I’ve never experienced this and I want to remember it. But for me it’s like, think about that mentality instead of being like, oh my god I need to sit down, I need to like, you know, I need to put my feet up. No, no, no, I want to stop and I want to be like, click, you know, like hold it there and then be like…

I’ll be like, I’m gonna laugh about this as soon as I’m done. And if I keep going, I’ll be done sooner. Yeah. All right, so I’ll wrap it with this story, because it’s so in line with what you just said. The 100 -Miler I finished, my buddy Cordell was pacing me, middle of the night in the Zion desert. And I’m like doubled over. And he’s like, what’s wrong? So I’m having this pain in my leg. And so he’s just an amazing pacing friend. Like he’d get down and just like help massage my leg for me.

And at one point I’m just doubled over and he’s like, what’s going through your head right now? Like, let’s just get it out there. And I said, despair. And he said, despair? Have you ever felt despair before? And I said, I thought I had, but I have not. He’s like, can you believe how awesome this is? You’re experiencing something for the first time right now. And it was just like this moment of like, oh my God.

Even despair felt beautiful. Yeah. And when you think about that, something else that I also think about is being grateful to even be able to do that. It’s so wild. And I remember summiting Hope’s Pass this year and I balled. I balled at the top of Hope’s Pass because I was like…

Like I’ve never been this close to this guy. I’m getting goosebumps. I’m getting goosebumps Like like like look at that like how how grateful Think about all think about the people that are born into a wheelchair. Yeah, they’ll never see the top of hopes pass Yeah, think about the people that are you know born into a wheelchair. They’re never gonna see UTMB, right? They’re never gonna see Western states. They’re never going to summit the tallest point of anywhere. Yeah

and you and I can just walk out there and we can sign up for some random race and just hike up Hope’s Pass and go to the top. How fucking ungrateful to not feel that. And that’s a big thing for me is like when I get in these spaces of hurt and pain, think about the fact that those people will also never get that sense that you felt when you crossed that finish line.

they’ll never feel that. Because they don’t have the capability to do that. So why take advantage of that to where you get to choose to go out there and do that? Why would you quit? Yeah, that’s a good way to end. Matthew, thank you so much, man. Yes, sir. I appreciate you. I appreciate it.