What is Trail Running Becoming?

speaker-0 (00:00.398)
What has changed in trail running? think it’s… I mean, there’s definitely been a pretty large growth over this period of time. But also, it’s still… I think in my mind, it’s essentially what it was. It’s still the actual act of trail running. The fact that it’s way smaller than road running. Like, being based, I’m no longer in Stockholm as I was 10 years ago, but…

There’s many people who run a lot in the major cities that have access to trails but still choose to run roads. So trail running as a landscape internationally is enormous. In Sweden it’s still a relatively niche activity even though mountain running, orienteering, all these activities have been going on for a huge, globally and locally.

But so it’s sort of both. In one hand, it’s growing enormously. On the other hand, it’s essentially, it’s still sort of a niche sport that is a little bit more, maybe not hardcore participants, but it’s a little bit more out there than the other.

speaker-1 (01:10.516)
What drew you into it originally, just as a runner, before you were a race director?

speaker-0 (01:14.826)
I I started running because I was the same story I think as many people was. Many years in the restaurant industry, little bit of an unhealthy lifestyle. About to have our first kid, started to need to always enjoyed being outside but working in the restaurant industry it wasn’t really compatible. So commutes back and forth to work, signed up for a half marathon.

And then from that got a little bit more into running, read some books, born to run. Yeah, exactly. And that led to be more interested in the trails and ultra distances naturally and living in Stockholm as we did at the time and the access to the forest around there was like it was natural for me to gravitate to the forest and then head up north to the mountains more than it was to.

speaker-2 (02:08.852)
We’re all kind of, because we’re all the same generation, it’s probably sort of we all kind of came at it at the same age, maybe transitioning to into running and kind of adjusting from like I had a very similar entry into running which was like I was in the music business, incredibly unhealthy lifestyle, seven days a week, lot of late nights and it was kind of trying to like adjust from that. That was entry, the entry point was running.

and then from running and running in the streets and running with other people and having the Nike run up.

speaker-1 (02:42.094)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

speaker-0 (02:44.75)
That thing that used to fit in the shoes.

speaker-2 (02:48.206)
Then all of sudden it’s like, okay, the city is sort of an easy thing to do because you pack your shoes and shorts and then you can run anywhere if you’re traveling. And then you’re like, okay, but what else? What’s next? You sign up to something and then you go into the trails and like, my God, the trails are so much more fun. They’re so much more interesting and you don’t need music anymore because you’re kind of running and listening to your steps and things.

speaker-0 (03:11.662)
Absolutely, and that landscape of running 10, 15 years ago when you would commute or would, yeah, had your track my run or whatever the app was on the telephone. Now it’s like road running is much cooler. There’s like run groups every night. You can hook up with people, you can do different runs. It’s much more of an infrastructure around the actual act of running if you live in a major city. Whereas back then it was a little bit more, it was a bit more of a loan. It was a fitness.

activity that gave you some sort of mental clarity.

speaker-1 (03:45.016)
Yeah, I think over the last decade, mean, you know, at least the 100-mile culture dates back to like 1974 or so in Western United States. But obviously, born to run was a major inflection point. And in Born to Run, he talks about that running tends to grow every time there’s like this sort of international turmoil. So, you know, the big boom of the early 80s, like coinciding maybe with the oil crisis, late 70s, early 80s, then going, you know, fast forward.

9-11 was a major moment. Then the crash of 0-9, 0-8 to like 2012. Yes, Lehman Brothers and then all the way to COVID. Like, obviously, you know, maybe during all those others, we weren’t professionals in the outdoor world, but during COVID, we were all in this space, more or less. What have you seen, maybe even just at Cladarmuysen? you write at Cladarmuysen, you’re entering into trail running.

speaker-2 (04:22.904)
limit.

speaker-1 (04:44.514)
you’re committing to it more right now. What have you seen just in the last few years that made you want to do that?

speaker-2 (04:50.306)
I mean, we have this heritage brand that’s 50 years old and it actually started from mountaineering kind of climbing culture, like the same thing that was happening in Yosemite in the States with Yvonne Chouinard and those guys was happening also in Scandinavia. Many of the brands were coming out of that generation of people going out into the mountains and trying to figure out what to do and how to wear. And it wasn’t just climbing like in Yosemite because in Scandinavia you have you can climb, but it’s more around the concept of mountaineering.

like how to live with nature and how to explore it in the different seasons and in the winter you’re doing long expeditions with your tent and in the summer you’re doing long expeditions with your tent but just with different layers and things and that’s kind of been a generational you know journey that the brand has had and then as we kind of go into the century and people are doing in Scandinavia using the terrain and the environment to do things lighter you know without maybe without the pulka and like the sledge

on your back, that went into like 100 liter backpacks and then now it’s in like 10 liter backpacks and you’re going like quick in and outs and you’re running or you’re doing the long expeditions but then you’re setting up tent and staying there in a little base camp and then running around and running up and down and doing the mini golf as we call it, Like of like, that wasn’t happening 50 years ago but it’s happening now. So as someone who has a brand who kind of, you know.

is supposed to empower people with our gear and letting them do what they’re, you know, kind of respond to their, then we had to kind of think about what is trail running and how does it look. It used to be, trail running used to be a very competitive kind of…

UTMB like Killian Yarnett like we’re not that brand. We’re not a competitive brand. We’re Scandinavian and it’s all about the pursuit of the journey within you and that’s what how Songlands was kind of like a perfect, know, it’s not just about climbing the highest peak as quickly as possible. It’s not a Kevney Kaiser kind of race. It’s sort of like, you know, do it in a way that’s suiting for you and figure out how to come back the next year and tweak it and adjust it. So I think it’s more, I think as trail running has become more of that

speaker-2 (07:03.888)
hey you have the elite and then you have lots of different ways in which you can tweak it and be niche around it that’s been really much more interesting for us as a niche brand.

speaker-1 (07:15.554)
Billy, what do you think? So you came into the sport, Gans mentioned UTMB, and you decide, you’re coming out of life as a chef, which is crazy hard life, taxing on the body, all this sort of stuff, but you exchange it for something that’s actually harder on your body, and harder on your life, but you make your way into this space where you started a race, and many people who are exploring, I mean you have a lot of distances I know, but.

we tend to romanticize the 100-miler. If someone lives in Sweden, have a UTMB 100-miler they can choose from, or UTMB is a compelling sort of race organization that’s out there, and you’re competing with this established thing that has 20 years of history. Just in general, what’s that experience even like? mean, is UTMB always in your calculus when you’re marketing and when you’re thinking about who you’re going after? Do you always have to account for them?

speaker-0 (08:09.46)
We, not really, we know that they will take the runners that they take. There’s nothing you can do about it. So, and there’s many people who have run our races, there’s friends, acquaintances from the scene that we know and love that go and run UTMB races. Everybody does. And you know that, okay, you factor in that some years they’ll be with us if they can, and maybe they’ll run a shorter distance as a training race, or maybe they’ll focus on the longer races. So I think it’s

It’s there, but there’s not much we can… We can’t do anything about it. We can’t compete with Chamonix or the Pyrenees. How many races do they have? 60 races around the world. It’s impossible. So what we have to do is focus on our little corner of Sweden, south of Stockholm. And then try and do the best we can in that.

geographical setting with the means that we have, which is, I mean, we offer something that’s kind of different. It is small scale relative to UTMB race, but we’re ambitious in a sense that we want to be a big trail race in Sweden, which means we land around what we will be. We’ll be just over a thousand runners this year in total, which is relative to the population of the country. That puts us into the realms of some of the biggest races in the world, if you think about Paris or think about house.

in France.

speaker-1 (09:35.566)
I mean that’s bigger than any race in America. Maybe a couple of the Arizona races on trail could match it in terms of total registration, but in general.

speaker-0 (09:42.094)
We don’t get that big on America. And then 100 mile, we’ll sell out this year for the first time. We’re very close to already and the aim is to have 150 people on the start line. Nice. So it’s not many people, but it’s also quite many. Logistically, you’ve got an A to B race in the middle of, I mean, there’s some areas that are pretty inaccessible. Logistically, it’s a headache. I mean, I would never, if we hadn’t have started with 100 mile race, we would never have added 100 mile race.

It’s a total logistical nightmare. But it’s great fun and I’m so happy that we have because every other distance feels relatively easy compared to 100 miles.

speaker-1 (10:22.35)
Are the big players, Gans I’ll ask you, the big players in trail running, whoever they are, you could name them the Fortune 100 brands of the world, that also dabble in trail. Do they carve a path for the new entrants? How do you view Clowder Mewson’s position coming in, again, Heritage Grand, 50 years old, coming into something that has a bit of this identity crisis that I think…

And you know, like what’s your point of entry? Like where do you find your way in? you know, is there a carved path that you see or is it like, hey, we’re gonna come in our own way. There’s room to come in our own way.

speaker-2 (11:00.45)
Yeah, but I we, think we’re quite clear with what we are and what we aren’t. We cannot do the perfect kit.

for Killian or for Courtney to win the next UTMB race. We don’t have decades of experience doing that. And those are kind of specific functionality choices and material designs that we’re not really familiar with. We also don’t have the marketing dollars or the firepower to like…

get a lot of newcomers into the sport and to sort of commercialize this but what we do have is you know we have a transition or like an assortment or a way of looking at sustainability on material design a way of thinking about layering and how the materials are supposed to work together for long races which is becomes really important right for carrying systems on the packs and what we do is figure out the balance between having those choices be primary and then

being dedicated to what the sport requires, what the activity requires. We’re, I mean like what you were saying with Sommelands, we can’t really compete with some of the brands that have been doing this. We can only use what we are good at, our DNA, and try to figure out what that means, what that represents when we interpret it into this activity. And I think it’s big enough that

And interesting enough that we feel confident some of the guys who are maybe entering into the sport from hiking and trekking or from alpinism is going to find us to be an authority on it. But it’s not a, you know, we need to do that always with a firm sense of confidence. we’re not sure that we have a valuable proposition, then we shouldn’t be doing trail running.

speaker-1 (12:45.634)
I recently wrote a piece just saying I don’t know that we as an industry in trail running know exactly the journey that someone lands in trail running. Because the version that Billy and I have always connected on is this one that’s like really, yes we’re out there performing, but it’s deeply rooted in meaning. Like what we’re doing out there means something to us as individuals, it means something to us.

speaker-2 (13:07.456)
Yeah, that values part I think is easier to keep in the center of your focus when you’re in a little bit smaller niche or more focus. As soon as you get bigger and all of sudden the assortment explodes or maybe the number of races explodes and your ambitions become…

bigger and bigger, it’s much harder to keep those roots deeply connected to the values. And then it becomes a little bit of a machine because everybody connects with it in different ways. I think there’s a much more, maybe like a much smaller long tales of like what our customers and our guests or our competitors know and think about us as brands, right? And that means that we can connect much better.

speaker-1 (13:54.926)
Do you guys feel like, and maybe Billy, go to you here, what sort of responsibility do you carry? Beforehand, we had breakfast, we talked about gatekeepers. There’s a love-hate relationship. There’s a version of gatekeepers in the sport that maybe are preserving the thing that we loved most about it. Then there’s gatekeepers in the sport who may be keeping people who would love the sport, keeping them from being able to enter it.

Do you, as a race that has over a thousand people, again that puts you in the largest race in America, even though you’re in, just for perspective, do you carry any responsibility? Do you feel like you have any responsibility beyond Sermland’s 100 and Sermland’s Trail Fest? Like, do you think beyond that?

speaker-0 (14:36.014)
I feel that we have, mean, of course we have a responsibility to the people who are running. The greater, I don’t know whether I would say in the greater, what’s the word, the greater community or the greater…

speaker-2 (14:50.606)
could do.

speaker-0 (14:51.072)
market that it’s something that we necessarily need to feel responsible. So long as we put on a good event for our runners, so long as we work well with all our partners and I think so long as we ultimately as a team are like proud of what we do, I think that that’s good enough. I think I feel like the race is deeply personal, like it means a lot to me. So I’ve run every section of the race many times, like we live 500 metres away from the course. I take it personally when people

when you get a critique it’s like it hurts a little bit even though sometimes you know that it’s correct and sometimes… So I feel definitely a great level of responsibility but in the bigger picture I feel like we’re small enough that if we put on a good event and we get people coming back and newcomers and that’s enough we don’t need to think bigger scale than that.

speaker-2 (15:47.854)
totally agree with that. I feel the same way about Klett & Monson. It’s so personal. Every product we do, even on trail running, if somebody critiques it, it’s like stab in the heart. And of course, we’re doing our research and seeing what’s in the market and seeing how customers behave and what they wear and all these things. And at the same time, you need to kind of ignore that big macro picture and what others are doing if you want to just do your thing and just be stubborn about it for long enough that people will just

connect with that.

speaker-0 (16:18.752)
I think one thing that’s really interesting with Glutton Moussen and I think it’s coming from a different angle. I remember there was a boom in the restaurant scene in mid-2010s where there was a lot of restaurants coming out. was the Parisian Nio Bistro scene where was a lot of guys that weren’t even chefs and they were cooking. They were thinking so much outside of the box and sometimes they nailed it and sometimes it was maybe a little bit off but it was always interesting. was always like… And I feel a little bit with Glutton Moussen.

is that like that energy is there of like daring to do something different and like from my experience running in the gear you’ve nailed it but there’s always going to be that risk when you’re doing something that isn’t following the path of the…

the major trail running brands that it could go wrong or there could be something that’s a little… And I think that that’s really… That draws me to Glittermusson, I think. The fact that there is a… It’s not arrogant brave, it’s not cocky, but it’s like, is how we go about things. And I think that’s pretty nice.

speaker-2 (17:23.706)
I think it’s really important. We bring this humanness as well, as a brand that is independent and trying to do different things. We’re up against this, as you call it, the Jägerknott of the industry. in general, it could be a win-win. If somebody’s running on a piece of Kledemus and Gere and Salomon and whatever, we all win. We all just have our own dedicated, as they said, you need to be yourself because everyone else is taken.

I think that gives us a lot of confidence and then just time because this season is better than last season but not nearly as good as next season and this race is not as good as you know you kind of keep tweaking it those thousand different variables that’s how you evolve it. People want to be part of that journey as well they’re not showing up they know they’re showing up to the same SOM lands but they know that it’s gonna be different SOM lands than it was last year that’s important.

speaker-1 (18:22.062)
I think there’s a misconception somewhat in trail running, at least in the culture, that runners have more say over where the industry is going than I think that they actually do. So this is my own personal thesis. There’s this thought that what the runner wants is where it goes. And I think that’s not true because in the end, it really goes where those who are investing take it. Maybe it’s because I have own businesses and I know that

And coffee, what we would choose to invest in with coffee, that’s where coffee would go for Utah or Salt Lake City. But I’d be listening to the customer who’s giving me money, of course, but in the end, as a visionary, and I think the three of us, each of us sit in this position of making decisions to go somewhere that maybe someone hasn’t gone because you’re giving new vision to a company and all of that sort of stuff.

So, you know, I’m not saying think of yourself as the investor, but think yourself as the leader of something. You know, where are you hoping to take it? where do you like, you can catch it in Cladarmusen, where Cladarmusen meets Trail, but like, what’s the vision? Like, where do you take it? And then how do you see the customer, the runner, engaging with where you want to take it?

speaker-2 (19:39.854)
I mean, I definitely think it starts with the values, right? And then the humanness of it and it’s more about this shared journey that we’re going to embark in. I’m not sure what trail running will be in the future. think it’s for the version of trail running that we really like and we feel connected with is not about top performing athletes who compete globally on the circuit. And it’s more about people who are looking at trail running as a person.

personal journey, personal things. We think about ourselves not just as pure outdoor, but Kladimersen in itself is also a brand that connects with culture, with other aspects of people. mean, we’re all Renaissance men, Or Renaissance people. So just because you like trail running or you’re really good at it doesn’t mean you don’t like cooking and food or music. So I think we try to connect at that layer and at that level. And I think that part of

of it is becoming more more interesting, like chefs who cook, or runners who cook, or chefs who run.

speaker-0 (20:47.992)
Yeah, like, yeah.

speaker-2 (20:49.144)
those groups and things. I find that really inspiring every time you sit down with trail runners and you’re talking about like 70s hip hop or home alone or whatever. There’s all these layers of things that you can talk to it. I also like I would be lying to say like I love the idea of going to UTMB and it’s a circus but it’s a magical circus. And you kind of you love everyone. You love gear. You love what they’re doing. That brand is doing a cool event. We’re all kind of children at the end of

day. That’s also quite fun. I think afterwards, as more of an introverted news brand, I like those small one-to-ones where you can have a dedicated time and you can disconnect a little bit.

speaker-1 (21:34.35)
Do you see, when you think about building products for the future for runners, do you try and look at where runners are going or do you try and build something and say, come here. This is, know, are you trying to innovate in a way that invites them to something or are you trying to like get behind them and support where they’re going?

speaker-2 (21:53.39)
needs to be our point of view. Yeah, of course we take a lot of consideration into how they’re doing, but we have a pretty, I think a pretty unique take on materials, sustainable materials and on durability, durability and sustainability being almost the same word in Swedish. we, know, yeah, there’s the approach to like just having the ultra light, you know, almost, you know, wear it once and it away so that you can shave off, you know, the 0.001.

speaker-1 (22:12.704)
really?

speaker-2 (22:23.424)
grams, that’s not something we’re going to do and that’s something that the elite of runners would need. We have an approach to wool materials, windbreakers made of cotton and cotton ripstop with our Cadillac cotton material fabric. So figuring out how to solve those needs in our way and the way we look at layering is really, important.

speaker-1 (22:47.768)
Billy, what about you? When you think about the future, you you think five years down the road with Sirmlands, here’s what it needs to be. when you think about that, are you thinking, here’s my vision, or how do I build this? You know, because you’re also building a career. And so are you trying to think, hey, I just want to make sure I get this to, like, I got to get a consistent 1,500 a year, so I’m going to shape it so I get that amount of runners, so I get the amount of revenue. Like, how do you think about shaping?

speaker-0 (23:10.888)
I’m unfortunately that I haven’t thought about how do we get to or every year I’ve just thought about how can we make it a little bit smoother a little bit better what can we add to make the runners experience better so there’s never been I think we’re we’re probably two years or three years away from reaching capacity and capacity will never be more than probably 1,500 runners maybe a little bit sooner and it feels like we hit that that’s what the the environment and the trails can handle and I think that’s what we

can handle as like an event that brings together that amount of people on one day so people feel seen. It’s not faceless. You get your medal and a banana and you’re off. There’s some sort of energy at the finishes. So I think for me it’s like, okay, Sermon on Tundra is very close to being reaching its goal. Then we have our winter race, is, this was the second year. We’re pretty…

That will reach a goal as well, which is much less than a thousand runners. And then it’s also then it’s a case of looking at the race calendar in the country and think, okay, what what’s needed? What do we there was talk of a 200 miler that’s not going to happen. I can tell you that now we’re not going to organize. But then as we were discussing on the way here is like the idea of maybe there’s the possibility to do like a smaller scale trail series, something that where you pin a bib on you do something that’s

that’s not ultra, it’s not a festival, it’s not a party afterwards, it’s just pure racing. Midweek, something easy going, and it feels like that gives something, it adds something to the greater picture. We don’t essentially want to compete with other race organisations, everybody’s doing their own thing and doing great jobs, but to try and add something that brings more to the runners, to the community, something that creates something else, it feels like.

So there is no sort of strategy. Exactly.

speaker-2 (25:07.64)
Something that I’ve been thinking a lot about as well, haven’t discussed a lot with the team yet, we have this thing, because we do activities on a seasonal calendar as well, and you hit on, like this is kind of like trail running time.

And that’s when we do the campaign launch and the product drop. But that’s actually kind of fake because people can travel all year round, right? So how do you kind of layer this on top? like I started running because I was waiting for the winter to come because all I wanted to do was skiing and I wanted to be in shape for skiing. But now I actually kind of think about it almost the other way. Like I ski and like get fit so that I can do longer races in the…

there’s probably a way of connecting a lot of these activities as well where you can just be gearing up for or transitioning from and connecting with, especially with climbing, which is also another really, really interesting activity, totally different muscle and like skill set, but something that people also do in combination, right? There’s a lot of, I think there’s a lot of interconnection of activities as you go through.

speaker-1 (26:11.11)
It’s a little messier. It’d be nice from a marketing standpoint for it to be clean. Also maybe for Cladder Musen, know, maybe when you think about growth into trail running, are you thinking about, you know, our customers are already happy with what we do with our winter gear, with this gear, with that gear, and so then you look to grow from, you know, existing customers? Or do you think let’s go grow through new trail runners, new people who’ve never heard of my brand before. The first time that they’ll ever hear from it is from our trail running release.

Thanks.

speaker-2 (26:42.262)
I think there’s, yeah, maybe so, but I think only when it comes to, I think in general, people look at brands as, you know.

You trust the brand if you feel they have an authority on what they’re doing. We have an authority on hiking and trekking, on climbing and on skiing. We haven’t started to grow in trail running, that’s not necessarily something that maybe a trail runner who knows trail running really well is going to look at us and say, hey, let me start into your journey and see how you develop. It’s more, I think, the existing people who understand Kletomuzen and our values who say, yeah, I also, I’m hiking.

when I’m skiing, but I’m also trail running and now it could be an interesting way to approach it. yeah, think our, in general, I cleft musen grows a little bit like what you’re saying, just by doing everything we do, but better. And then letting…

speaker-2 (27:45.806)
to see it kind of continuing to grow into the communities that we work with.

speaker-0 (27:50.296)
But that’s something I’ve noticed a little as well in the industry and brands wanting that haven’t necessarily been in trail running. then it’s often you see a little bit more from a cynical angle at like, okay, trail running is growing. They do a trail running release. But.

I think there is like trail running is quite a high integrity sport. There’s a lot of people who’ve been involved a long time and you see if it’s just trying to be, it’s a moneymaker or if it’s an actual act of engagement and wanting to be part of something of a greater good kind of, and you can see that. And there’s some brands that definitely see it more as a natural progression of the brand or a natural direction to go in. And then you see it with others where it’s like, okay, we pour some money.

it quickly that didn’t take off then we step away.

speaker-2 (28:43.554)
Yeah, there’s a definitely like we we are in our you know, we’re Scandinavian brand so we work with our terrain just like Some brands and you know from Utah work in that terrain some brands in the Alps work in that terrain So anything that people are doing in the outdoors and this can be weather conditions with this, you know with with planks or mush or like with this kind of altitude and then we should be like our job is to figure out how to Outfit them right? Yeah, how to gear them up and

Yeah, that’s we’re kind of more following that customer.

speaker-1 (29:18.449)
Yeah, as I think, you know, again, I’ve been thinking a lot about how do people get into the sport because everybody has their own story. haven’t, you know, there’s not like a doesn’t feel like there’s a consistent thread. We all once we find our way into it, we all feel like instant, instant kindred spirits instantly connected. Like, wow. Like you heard the call of this crazy. And I’m thinking not just trail, but ultra trails, you know, like, oh, you heard this call to like you’re here. You love it. Billy, with your race, do you see first time trail runners at your race? Like, do you, you know,

speaker-2 (29:40.686)
you

speaker-1 (29:47.502)
Has someone gone from the road to the trail for the first time ever at Sermlands? Like are you seeing growth through, like how are you, like where are these new runners coming from?

speaker-0 (29:56.61)
Definitely you see growth. think we’re fortunate because we’re an hour away from Stockholm so there’s a huge base of road runners and then also that we’ve established ourselves with quite many runners are coming from Stockholm and then it’s naturally close enough so you can bring in a carful in an hour, an hour and a half from the city. So there’s quite many people signing up to the shorter distances that are not…

that are very established road runners and you see how they look at the end of a 22k pretty technical trail race and you can tell that they’re not super established trail runners but always with a smile on their face so it feels like there’s a getting in with there is that transition period and I think we definitely definitely find a lot of our a lot of our runners the first time or early early trail runners

speaker-1 (30:47.63)
Let’s say if you’re going to, either one of you, allocate $1,000, sorry, I think in US dollars, so you’re going to allocate $1,000 to marketing and you want to talk to someone who you think is likely going to enjoy your race, your product. mean, who do you target that to? Who do you think is…

quote-unquote, I know it’s somewhat romantic, gonna hear the call. You know what I mean? Like, who’s, do you see a certain person that’s not running that you feel like, they’re, if they like climbing, if they like it in this way, then they’re probably gonna like running. Like, who, who do you call to?

speaker-2 (31:24.206)
I think that’s a great question because what that campaign would look like for me with a thousand bucks is only focusing on ignoring the racing. Don’t focus at all on what it’s like to race. Focus on the moments before, the packing list, how many gels do you have in your pocket, how you’re kind of nervous what the starting line is, and then focus at the very end, how your feet look, how everyone is

sitting you know and like the like because it’s I think that’s when people are thinking about running they get it but when people are experiencing the beginning and the end and the community feel and like how you feel with your body and how you you that’s when you’re really like connecting at an emotional level that’s what’s special about chair running.

speaker-1 (32:15.918)
That’s exactly how I used to try and sell it to my buddies. I would say there’s nothing like the start line of a 100-miler, and there’s nothing like the finish line of a 100-miler, and there’s absolutely nothing like running 100 miles. And the first two are awesome, and the middle one is like the epitome of that type two fun. It’s going to be great to look back on. What about you, Billy? Who do you spend that money on? Who do you think will hear the call right now? Who do you think, for you, could be specific Stockholm or?

speaker-2 (32:33.662)
Get it done. We’re almost there, yeah.

speaker-0 (32:44.558)
I think now we’re looking at it’s so different because we’ve got from 100 miles to the two kids the 2k kids race and everything in between 100k 50k or 22k and 8k in the night and then 8k during the day so the seven races in a 36 hour period and that’s kind of so and the intention is that it is kind of for everybody like we want the first time runners to go out on the trails like my daughter’s nine she ran the 8k during the day our son is

Was he 13? He ran the night trail and he can’t see because he was like, well, it doesn’t matter. He’s blind. So I can run the night trail and the trail. It doesn’t make any difference.

speaker-1 (33:22.894)
When I was there at your race one year, he ran it and one of your friends was like his buddy who ran with him.

speaker-0 (33:29.134)
And then also, the sort of intention is…

You want the experienced 100 milers, you also want the inexperienced. You kind of want something that scratches everybody’s itch. But ultimately the thing that’s the most fun is that everyone, we try and time it as best we can that everybody hits the finish line at the same time. So when you’ve got like the 22k run, it’s a nightmare when they all come in with their endorphins through the roof, super happy, full of energy, just talking to everybody, wound up having a crazy time. And then you’ve got a 100 miler just

stumbling through the finish line, been out there for 32 hours. The last thing they want is a But it’s all fun, that whole dynamic and you see the different energies and people sat around and like this last year we changed the finish area so we had a it was more of an enclosed area and a little bit fairly tight, tight energy. We had to the moose and they’re handing out coffee and bullar and stuff which was super well appreciated.

speaker-2 (34:10.286)
I’ll look into it

speaker-0 (34:32.226)
But just that energy of everybody there at the same time and you really get that sort of melt in pot. So it would be difficult. We’d have to divide it to like a hundred dollars per each Democrat.

speaker-1 (34:42.158)
I feel like this, often in this world I…

People hear that you run a 100 mile or that you try to, you know, that I love to even just think about it. And they can’t contemplate it. It’s not, it’s just not interesting to them. And you just want to say like, but if you could just like, just go feel it once. I mean, I ran a trail half marathon. It was my first thing. was like, and I had come off of running road and I wasn’t very fast. And that, when you’re not fast on road, it’s a different feeling than not being fast on trail. Cause no one asks your time on trail.

It’s the fifth or sixth or seventh question. Whereas road, it’s usually the first or second question. Which it’s fine, I get it, because as someone who loves to compete, get it. I just wasn’t good. But at trail, what I love is that the first five questions were nothing to do with how fast you did it, and that’s just what I needed.

speaker-2 (35:30.616)
Yeah, I find there’s a lot of camaraderie and just like humanness in the finish line of a trail running race. It doesn’t matter the length or the technicality of it. Everyone just, you just like, you know, we have this with cutlery and experiences when we go out and like you have a big day ski touring or something and then you get to the end and like you have a beer and then…

you kind of like nobody has any like any what do say like fences or like everyone is just happy to be there happy to be you know in that place like I find it very inspiring in general.

speaker-0 (36:06.07)
think it’s hilarious how it works. A good friend of mine now, Tommy, who’s run our races a few times before, we’d only met once or twice. The first time we met, he was having some stomach issues at a race in Arup Field Marathon in Aura at 100k. And he kept on running off to the bushes. then the second or third time we met, he was with his girlfriend and I was with my wife, and they’d not met each other. None of us had met. I’d only ever met Tommy. And immediately we started talking about our toilet habits during

the race and before the race and you think like and they were both looking at each other thinking like what the hell is wrong with these guys and we’re talking about bowel movements after a race in front of two perfect strangers and you think like this only trail running can allow that. Yeah. You think like what a weird world that we found ourselves in.

speaker-1 (36:50.542)
to wear, it’s just not a big deal.

speaker-1 (36:57.154)
I often think about how really what’s happening out there is, I used to think it’s two different sports happening at the same time, but now I feel like they really are diverging and we call them both trail running. But there’s this elite optimization, like we’re in the margins, like how do you get, lower your time by one or two minutes, and then there’s still the people out there, which was where I came in through, that are just, we’re out there doing things other than competing and performing.

It’s a mental health activity. It’s how I offload stress. It’s how I, you know, the number of people who are wrestling with addiction and coming out the other side of it and found trail running and ultra running as a place that could absorb that for them and help them through it. You know, there’s just so much happening out there. I feel like, again, I often talk about I don’t like gatekeeping. I feel like if you think this is the best sport in the world, why wouldn’t you want everybody to do it?

But if I were to think of one thing I hope doesn’t change, really what it’s couch more so than what I think I hope does change is let the elite, because as a fan, I want that, I want to watch that. I’m so excited about what happened at the canyons. I’m so excited about what’s happening at Western states. But just let that go. And I want to celebrate that as a fan. But I just hope as a gatekeeper, all of this stuff that’s like soul work that we’re doing out there on the trail, what I think Sermons represents nicely is I hope that that gets preserved.

speaker-2 (38:27.406)
I couldn’t agree more. I never thought about it that way. I want to watch those races and read about them as well as you do the Tour de France or something. But that’s very different to what the real impact of the sport is.

speaker-0 (38:42.702)
I think though if you look at sports that are further down the line like climbing is in the Olympics now like skiing like snowboarding like There’s plenty more They they have their elite side cycling as well obviously but then they have a lot of people who then then there’s people old married couples that go bike touring every and camping in the out on the mountains or whatever and so that

I think that there’s a good relationship between them that you benefit because maybe some of the performance related gear for the top elites get filtered down into the Sunday fun runner. But I think you don’t…

they can both survive equally. I think sometimes I go through periods when I’m really interested in the elite side of the trail running world. And then you can listen to one too many podcasts and you think the last thing I want to do is listen to anybody else talk about carbon plated shoes. So you’ve got, and then you can just go for a run without listening to a podcast. You can listen to music again. And it’s pretty nice that the joy of trail running is like you’ve said,

times in many podcasts Josh about the act of trail running is the thing that’s so good. Yes. Maybe we’ll get to the point where people will start having the Jim Warmsley and the Courtney DeWatt jerseys, you never know. But as it stands now, I think we should just lean into the fact that the act of running is so…

speaker-1 (40:17.26)
Yeah.

speaker-2 (40:17.774)
I think the mind, I mean we look at the outdoors like hiking and trekking, like going into nature in Scandinavia so much about this mindfulness and this sort of…

balancing of life and just sort of being in nature rather than trying to conquer it. And that’s really something that ties into trail running as well, as you said. it’s just, you can go for, I mean, I’ve never met anyone who regretted going out for a hike. Like it’s just, you come back and your ideas are fresh and your priorities are a little bit, mean, it’s chemistry, right? Or biology. And I think trail running is that gateway for sure.

speaker-1 (41:00.398)
Yeah, I mean, as we sort of wind down here, like, Billy, start with you. Like, we’ve looked a little bit at the past, a little bit at the present, talked some about the future, but, you know, 10 years from now, if we opened from 10 years ago, what was it like 10 years from now as it grows, as brands invest? You know, I think one of the things we’re waiting to see is, is all of this investment going to become like cash flowing, sustained businesses? Cause we, there’s a of money focused here.

But 10 years from now, let’s say all the investment works off, it pays off, it’s working, brands are in, we’re getting cool innovation. What do you just hope doesn’t change at all? What do you hope is exactly as it is now, which was exactly as it was 10 years ago?

speaker-0 (41:40.462)
That’s a tough one. Thanks for giving me that one first.

speaker-2 (41:41.934)
Easy one.

speaker-1 (41:45.484)
I can edit out if you want to think.

speaker-0 (41:50.68)
think it’s tricky because you want growth, you want it to be more sustainable, but you also don’t want to lose the soul side of things. I don’t, I’m not, to be honest, I’m not too worried about the negative. I think it will be fun. It will be in the Olympics. There will be some like weird course, like the ski mountaineering course where like some made obstacle course in the somewhere close to the whatever the…

20-32 Olympics or whatever the next one is where there looks to be trail running and I think that will draw in some fans and I think a lot of people will still be out in the out in the forest or in the mountains running the way that they always have done so I don’t I don’t think that’s a great answer to the question but I think it’ll be what it’ll be yeah I’m happy to lean into it or back away depending on the direction

speaker-2 (42:46.222)
I don’t think we are looking, both from some lands and from Clemson, I don’t think we look at our hand on this as shifting and shaping the industry in that way. I think we are quite clear what we want to do and how we see it and then lots of things will happen. I think we are still trying to be a force for good and a positive contribution to the sport.

We’re gearheads, we’re running heads, so we’re trying to figure out what that means. But I mean, I think the more money and the more investment that takes place, the better in general. From our side, at least, getting bigger, I said, we don’t want to be, we don’t want to explode and be the biggest, but being bigger opens up lots of doors and lots of opportunities and lots of things that we can do or fine tune. I think as long as we don’t lose our…

roots then I think we’ll be in a good position and then there will be waves as always right like the way as you were saying at the beginning there will be times when everybody wants to trail run and everyone is talking about the next juice and then there are times when nobody talks about it except the people who talk about it.

speaker-1 (44:01.119)
Right. Yeah.

speaker-2 (44:02.766)
I think it’s a little bit maybe trail running to me personally it’s gone from being a very very subculture to becoming a little bit more of a mass culture but within the mass culture there’s also still opportunities to do very interesting not subcultures necessarily but kind of niches and versions or sort of point of views on it that’s where we are. The bigger the pie the more interesting it is to try to find ways in which to create blue oceans.

speaker-1 (44:14.018)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (44:32.556)
Yeah, I’ve thought about this question a lot, so I realize that’s unfair. But I think 10 years from now, and I hope that 10 years from now, there’s a clean break between the elite version and the dirtbag version. Because I think the elite version needs to optimize for spectators and stop optimizing for the athletes. Like, you if you think about football, like…

that’s played at 7 p.m. on a Saturday night because that’s when the spectators can be there. And they put lights up because spectators have to work during the day. So they kept optimizing for the fan experience. Shroud running has not optimized for the fan experience at all. So I hope that the Elite version optimizes for that. I don’t care what course Jim Walmsley wants to run, I want him to run the course that’s best for coverage.

and whatever that means because I want to watch it. what I’m saying is like, let’s get crazy and make that elite version a true spectator sport. And then let us be like just awful dirtbags over here who like everything that’s made this great. Let us just be over here doing it because we love it and we get all of the good feelings and we love, you know, all of that sort of stuff. think those two, not only do I want that to happen, I think that’s where we’re naturally going.

Because I think everyone wins in that. Because then the elites can come play in the dirtbag world and run the slower races or the races that aren’t optimized for them. And then a dirtbag feels like they can go for it over here. Dirtbag is a term of endearment. I love dirtbag. I can go play in the elite version and see how that goes.

speaker-2 (46:07.662)
I think there’s also, I find this sort pendulum concept generally applies to most things and you kind of swing very much in one direction and then you kind of swing all the way back and you correct and I think for any transition, any activity like trot or any other that is in transition, we’re kind of in one of these pendulum swings and some of it will swing back, some of it will…

road running and every city marathon, know, they very specialized. Like Berlin marathon is very different than the London marathon. With trail running, I think you have also an opportunity to do really, really interesting stuff.

speaker-1 (46:49.398)
Yeah, I can’t believe, by the way, that sub two hour London Marathon. Two guys, yeah, that two people, and then all three of the men were world records, but the top two got below, I mean, what a time for optimization. She got the world record too, unbelievable.

speaker-0 (46:54.008)
You guys

speaker-0 (47:04.526)
Women’s World Record as well. Imagine being the guy who finished second with 159.41 and not…

speaker-1 (47:13.879)
And that was

speaker-2 (47:19.502)
I was on a plane last week going to Finnmark to the of Norway with a gentleman in his 60s. I was going to ski touring and he was going biking. He was telling me how he started to get into running. I to him. He basically said he hadn’t run until he was 50.

And then in his 50s he kind of joined this charity half marathon.

And then he did well. then he was like, and then there was another opportunity where it was like run a half marathon every day for a week. And he just sort of realized halfway through that his times were getting better and better and he wasn’t tired. And then he was like, do a marathon every day for a week or something. And he kind of started progressing. And then he just realized like the way his body reacted and how he sort of. And then then all of a sudden he became he started running an ultra. He just come back or he just done the Mongolian like sup.

He was like one of three in the starting line. And now I’ve had to replace my knees and my hip and whatever. But his journey into running was inspirational in that it just kind of happened to be at the right time for him. And then he realized that he had this capacity or this addiction to it. I think everybody’s journey into trail running is like that. Some people come in earlier or later.

because they’re skiers who want to… I think we… our job, think, is to kind of welcome all and figure out how to adapt that. Yeah. He was an interesting man, but I felt pretty inspired.

speaker-1 (49:05.556)
Yeah. Yeah, I this sport is the one that keeps on giving. feel like Billy and I were chatting earlier, like even 43 years old, I’m running my fastest even though I got injured. Probably because I was running too fast and I’m too old to be running this fast compared to like I shouldn’t have done it. like the body, I mean, it’s unbelievable. And I think that’s part of the draw here is that I can come into this sport and I can do this.

you know even even if i’m running slower and so i can do this as long as my knees and hips allow me you know

speaker-2 (49:38.478)
And it’s like, I find chair running to be kind of like a, if you’re person, kind of, mean, it’s like a, it’s not an activity for weirdos. Which is like, we need a place to hide as well.

speaker-1 (49:55.439)
Yeah, Billy.

speaker-1 (50:01.998)
Yeah, I mean there’s nothing like I mean my you know I’m fairly introverted, but when I go to a race I’m still not I’m not talking to everyone at the starting line where I’m where I become most chatty is We’re halfway through the race whatever distance, and I find that person who I’m running close to That says something about hey, we’re probably similar in a lot of ways. I’m not worse. We’re in the back of the pack We’re happy I get really chatty at that moment

and I will talk that person to you. It’s the only time that people will truly read me as, you’re an extrovert. I’m like, I’m not an extrovert. I’m just really happy when I’m running this late, like there’s nowhere else I wanna be.