Why People Run 100 Miles (with Billy Yang)

Most people don't understand why anyone would run 100 miles and honestly, it doesn't make much sense.

It's slow, it hurts, and there's no obvious reward at the end of it.

But we keep coming back, we sign up again.

So what is it?

What are people actually looking for out there?

It's the Borderlands Trail and Ultra Running podcast presented by Kip Brun.

This conversation was recorded live in front of an audience, so it might sound a little different than what you're used to around here, but if you've been with border lands for a while, you.

Might recognize this one.

It felt too important to leave in the archives, so we're releasing it now as a part of this new series tied to the spring equinox, where there's more light than dark.

Stories about how running gives us life and becomes a tool for getting through hard things.

Here I am at the University of Utah interviewing Billy Yang about why anyone.

Would run 100 miles.

Chris brought people into the scene and I just, I feel like your documentaries did a really incredible job of giving it a soul.

If I look at, I think about, you know, the why, which seems, you know, that's been the one that's had the most views.

Do you know the stats?

Are you aware of how many unique viewers you have compared to total views?

Meaning, do you know how many times people have watched, you know how many times I've watched that like with people trying to show them what I'm out there trying to do when I run 100 miles, it's like the go to thing to try and show what I'm doing out there.

Sorry, I'm getting over something so I will never get used to that.

I think my instincts behind that was to make something, to talk to the average person, maybe a spouse, maybe a friend who thinks I don't even like to drive that far and just humanize it.

But tell it from a perspective of.

I firmly consider myself like a mid, mid to back of the packer.

So you know, like the leads that I, I may have started covering when I was making, you know like documentaries about like Sally and some of the Nike boys.

I can't really relate to that.

I do think it's a, it's really exciting and it's definitely a part of our sport.

But I identify a lot more with people who are fighting cut offs to, you know, finishing somewhere around like 24 to 30 hours in a 100 mile race.

So I just wanted to tell it from that perspective and that was my only instinct and I Kind of feel shortchanged because Goo came on as my only sponsor, and they only had, like, a few shekels to throw my way.

I was like, all right, yeah.

I had this.

This idea percolating in my head, and I thought I'd make it and make myself the.

The protagonist of the subject, which is always awkward, too.

And I'd never in a million years would.

I thought, like, that would be my most viewed piece of content.

You know, like, it just doesn't feel right to me when I've covered people like Sally McCrae and Zach Miller and,.

Like, oh, I see.

Because you were the figure.

It felt weird.

The most popular one that you've ever put out.

You're the star, right?

And then, you know, you go even further and you have.

I've had people come up to me and, like, tell me that they found Ultra running because they.

They view that piece of content, and I still feel like a participant.

Like, all of this feels very bizarre and surreal to me.

And even saying out loud at the start of the community run, I'm like, I've been running trails for over 15 years.

Still sounds kind of weird coming out of my mouth, because I feel in some regards, I still feel like I just started and then content creation over a decade, and that still sounds weird to me.

So, I don't know, it's maybe just a part and parcel of getting old and just time going by really fast.

But, yeah, I definitely, like, go through some imposter syndrome.

Like, people really know me for this stuff.

It still takes some getting used to.

I mean, with.

I remember, like, trying to get my dad to understand what I'm out there doing when I.

You know, for those who don't know my story, I've tried to run 100 miles 10 times, and I've finished twice.

And my dad is, you know, supportive and, you know, was in my corner, and he's no longer with us, but he was in my corner for me.

I was like, you got to watch the why.

I mean, just a beautiful memory of sitting with my dad, and that was the time that he kind of got it, you know, Um, I think a lot of people.

So back to that comment.

Like, the soul.

Like, I feel like.

And I wonder if you have a different way of wording it or if you agree the way that you presented it, like the.

The monologues that you put before those documentaries you gave it.

You helped give words to us who are out there doing it for any other reason except fitness.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, like, fitness was maybe number 15 on the list of what we're out there doing.

And I feel like the why was the first way I could relay to non ultra runners this is what I'm doing.

And they started to get it.

My dad still said I was crazy, but at least then he got to see it and it started to click for him what it was.

Yeah, I do think it's a, you know, the old adage of it's 20% physical, 80% mental, but within that 80%, I also put emotional.

I put the soul, I put so many other different things under that category and that umbrella because it is a journey of the soul.

It is.

You're putting yourself.

You're intentionally paying four or five hundred dollars.

I don't even know what races cost these days, but it's.

I just did an episode about it that released this week.

Your mind would be blown.

Actually, it's gone up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We'll talk later.

Okay.

Yeah.

But it's for me anyway.

I can't speak for everybody here, but for me it is very much a journey of the soul.

And putting yourself through the crucible of running a 50, 100K 100 mile involves some like, shedding of whatever, you know, whatever perception you may put out there.

And then it does reduce you to your true authentic self.

And.

And I think there's a lot of beauty in that journey.

And, and so to hear that, that's.

That's great.

I mean, not a lot of people can identify with it.

I know there's a lot more like Broey dudes who are just like, just finish it all cost David Goggins, you know, Kevin Haynes type people.

And I can't really identify with those people.

Cause for me it's so many, you know, it started with me and my dad too.

After I lost my dad, is how I found this incredible community of ours.

So there's a lot of emotional connection to, you know, why we do what we do.

And hopefully I'm glad people can resonate with that.

I think this is why your documentaries.

Is that on?

No, no, I was like fidgeting with it.

Yeah.

I think that's why your documentaries about elite runners are so interesting.

Because I think about the Nike.

As you.

Did you say the Nike boys?

Yeah.

When you tell the stories of the elites, you're still telling it soulfully.

And I think that's why someone like me, I'd give anything to be Zack Miller and have his ability, but I don't, but because you tell it soulfully instead of from the perspective of his performance, even though we can all obviously see the performance is incredible, but you bring soul into it.

I think that's what's special about it.

Yeah.

And it helps to have a Zach Miller type who has so much character and gives everyone, like, so much of his time and undivided attention.

And he's.

I have a good friend of mine who underwent like Haglin surgery recently, and I said, hey, Zach, I know you went through something similar, like, do you mind talking to him?

And he has some questions.

And you know Zach, it's like, oh, yeah, yeah, no problem, you know, and just like pass on his number.

And I think that's like the ethos of our sport.

It doesn't matter if you're Jim Walmsley, Zach Miller, you know, you name it.

Killian.

Like, everyone is so approachable and so kind and generous with their time.

I think of like, Zach, you know, the figures who've shown up in your.

In the documentary work that you've done, from Zach to Tim Tollefson, David Laney from the, you know, the Nike boys.

Do you.

I mean, when you're looking at bringing their stories out, I mean, how.

What's the level of intention?

Like, are you sort of driving, like, the storytelling?

Are you really just like trying.

Just trying to capture it?

And who we have come to believe Tim Tollefson to be, is that just really who he is?

Meaning what you captured in these documentaries of this nice guy who's out there giving everything he's got.

Like, do you feel like you're really, truly capturing who they are off the clock because they seem like they're also your friends, you know, when you're not at work?

Well, I think that's my intention with anyone, regardless of where they are, from front of the pack to.

I did a story on this very, maybe not even middle of the pack, like cutoff chaser when he ran Leadville.

I did a film for La Sportiva.

Didn't come out on my channel, but that was every bit as gratifying because I think my instinct with anything is to have a fully fleshed out protagonist, a hero that you can root for and tell a three dimensional story.

If you can't tell a three dimensional story, if you can't connect with that subject, you know, what are we talking about here?

They're just another fast runner.

They're just another like faceless, nameless runner.

Yeah, but it's with everything, right?

I mean, that's the power of story is if you connect with someone through storytelling and just kind of bring their true, authentic selves to life.

I think that's where we're kind of at the crossroads at the sport, of the sport becoming really, you know, fascinating with live broadcasts and everything else.

But it's.

If you can't.

If you can't get the viewers to connect with the subjects through a story, through, you know, like making them, rounding them out into, you know, not just about, like, how fast they can run 100 mile race, but, like, who are they beyond when they take their trail shoes off?

Like, that's my.

That's always my instinct.

Yeah.

I mean, so you kind of touched on it when the sports evolved a ton since the first content that you put out.

What's your take on where it's at right now in terms of where it was?

When I think about where it was, I'd characterize it this way, is that there was, I think of the Anton Kaprickas.

There were these personalities, I feel, that were much stronger, and I don't know why that is.

If they were just great storytellers that were able to bring them forward.

Um, and today it doesn't feel like those.

It's as strong.

And I don't know if there's.

It's the storytelling.

I just think we have a lot more players and that goes for athletes and content creators and podcasts.

I mean, you name it, there's just a lot more media.

So maybe the noise is amplified, but I do think the opportunity to tell some really great stories and, you know, have the means for anyone here, like, if you wanted to become a content creator, if you wanted to tell stories about your best friend running the first hundred miles, like, it's never.

There's never been a better time.

And so I'm really excited about that.

I do think I have two feet, like both my feet kind of firmly entrenched in both camps of like, I want to bring as many people into the sport as possible because I do think it's transformative.

I do think it's the best freaking community out there.

So many people are welcoming, so many people welcome me.

At the same time, I do think there is a way to grow it responsibly and to grow it with integrity and.

And to grow it in a meaningful way where we don't lose that soul, you know, we don't just get the bros showing up and saying, like, yeah, I'm gonna.

I'm gonna crush Leadville.

And I, I don't, I don't mean to be dismissive.

You're not naming that, but you know what I'm saying?

Like, it's like, I think you can have both, but at the same time for me anyway, because the soul is so important that I do.

Like, I feel like it's my.

It's imperative within me to grow it in a very meaningful way.

Yeah.

And you've got your, you know, talk about a number of your feet are in a lot of different areas.

Like you, you know, was it.

When it comes to the Western State broads, Western states broadcast or anything, like you're kind of in a lot of places, you're on stage at, you know, Trail Con and stuff like that.

Yeah.

Yeah, I would definitely.

So one of my responsibilities, I'm part of the 15 member board of Western States Board of directors and I'm also tasked to direct and produce the live broadcast.

And it was an interesting challenge.

First year it was almost exclusively.

The spotlight was almost exclusively on the elites.

We did get some pushback about, hey, I want to hear more mid to back of the pack stories.

My initial instinct was like, well, people aren't tuning in for that.

People want to see the excitement of the front of the pack.

And then.

But then I also was like, hey, wait a minute, there has to be.

When we're talking about connection and when we're talking about having a rooting interest, why can't we do that?

Why can't we tell the story for the 14 hour finishers to the 30 hour finishers?

And so that was my mission last year, specifically to amplify the mid to back of the pack voices a lot more.

And I went to Western States training camp with the sole purpose of following and like just riding with people and like, hey, are you running the race this year?

Oh, let me talk to you.

And just got their stories, put it out on social media and people loved it.

People absolutely loved it.

And then tied it back around when they finished during the live broadcast.

I mean, yeah, the live broadcast of the race and everyone's like, oh, I remember that girl.

She.

She's.

She was this person.

Or like, that guy was that.

And, like, again, like, just going back to the power story.

That is the power story, and that is how you get more people into the sport.

It's like, you know, you just.

You just make the community a lot more accessible.

And maybe people draw inspiration from who knows whom, like, not necessarily the front of the pack.

Yeah.

I mean, even, you know, your LA Dodgers, even the, you know, the elite sports, you know, like the big sports, they are uninteresting without story.

Yeah.

And so we don't notice it as much because it's, you know, they do it so well.

They, you know, we root for a certain team or we root against a team because the story is being told so well.

I think that, like, that's, you know, what you talk about doing at a training camp and all that.

Like, you know, you build that anticipation going into, you know, Western states, and people will jump on.

People outside the sport hopefully, will jump on and want to do it.

But is there somebody you see right now that you wish you had time to tell a more robust story about a newcomer or someone who's crushing Anton Kapricka, maybe, you know, getting inspired and going back out, you know, what he did in Leadville two years ago, you know, is there anything that's interesting to you right now?

Well, I don't think the imperative's on me.

I think, like, what you're doing is plenty interesting because, like, getting to know you a lot more.

You have this fascinating entrepreneurial background.

You're doing all these different things, had all these different pots being stirred at the same time.

And the first time you came on my radar was when you did that interview with Scott and Brian from Path Projects.

And I was like, oh, this cat's kind of like, he has an attention to detail, to putting out quality.

Maybe not the numbers where you should be, but your intentionality and your attention to putting out a good product so that people will want to tune in is.

Yeah.

And I think just like that, telling of the entrepreneurial story, I think that's also fascinating in how we're talking about media and, you know, like, what goes.

Like, maybe people aren't inspired to be content creators.

Maybe they want to start a brand, an outdoor brand.

Yeah.

And you're telling those stories, so.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I think the onus can be on everyone in here who has any level of interest in storytelling.

It could be audio, it could be video, it could be, you know, a substack.

Yeah, but there's all.

There's so many stories, especially as the sport expands.

And so sorry if I'm not like landing on person in media at the top of my mind, but I do think there's just like a million one stories, especially as the sport is evolving and growing.

Yeah.

And.

And how they found the sport.

And you know, people are like, do they come from a drug addiction background?

Do they come from a background where they're sedentary and overweight?

So, yeah, there's a.

There's so many stories out there.

Yeah.

That can be.

Yeah.

I mean, told.

And I think what you.

I mean, so I was putting out documentaries and by the way, from a quality standpoint, without Ben, wherever Ben is, it wouldn't be what it is without Ben.

So shout out to Ben.

Yeah, shout out Ben.

Yeah.

You know, I release documentaries and I put out, you know, and I put a lot of work into the monologue.

I don't know where you got it from.

So this is my question.

So people like me were looking at you doing documentaries, I mean, as a primary person, to say, oh, he's telling these great stories.

I've got an eye for the story, but I want to do this thing where at the beginning I pull them in emotionally.

That's, you know, that's a, that's your calling card, from my perspective.

Who, who is your.

So you inspired me.

Who inspired you to do what you did?

Is there.

It doesn't.

I mean, not necessarily in running.

A filmmaker, Is there a storyteller?

Is there an author?

Like, how.

Who do you point to?

Yeah, I mean, I, I did look to people like, Jimmy Chin is a great storyteller out there.

I feel like rock climbing in general is maybe about a decade in front of trail running.

And so there's a lot of rock climbing content that I absorbed and I thought is really cool.

Like, I don't know if you ever saw Valley Uprising.

Camp four produced that.

And it just told the origin story of, of like Yosemite Valley.

And I thought it was just like a really, like, I related to it a lot.

And I remember thinking, I still have this bigger vision of like telling the story of American ultra running and how it came to be to the incredible growth that we see in the upticks and you know, from ultra marathon man Brian McDougal, I mean, Chris McDougall and born to Run and what an impact that made and all these like interesting cats and characters.

Yeah, that came along.

But at the end of the day, I think my inspiration has to be myself.

And let me explain, I.

Ultrarunning is a very weird thing.

Like, we love it when we're, like, in the middle of it, but just to get that initial momentum, to get out the door, you need some motivation.

I need motivation.

Like, I need motivation before a race, before I'm about to do an ultra marathon.

It's not like going out to eat a steak dinner.

You don't need any motivation.

You're like, I'm hungry.

Yeah, I'm gonna have a nice glass of cabernet and, you know, nice rib eye.

And, like, I don't need any motivation for that for.

But for something that we purportedly love, which is time outside, like that initial push to get outside.

We need it.

So.

So I was thinking about somebody like myself who just like, what.

What's going to get me out there?

But also just.

Yeah, continue to go back to that well of inspiration.

And.

Yeah.

And so it was for me, like,.

Me, I would say this about you and I would say this about myself.

Like, I think about.

I feel like I represent kind of the everyman.

Like, I'm.

I'm just a. I'm an average person.

I probably, you know, have some overlap with 80 cent of the.

80% Of the people in the field and that I'm not trying to win this thing.

I'm not going to.

But there's something, you know, there's something mysterious that, you know, calls me out there that I just.

I just have to do it.

Last night, after we had dinner, I went.

I was like, okay, I'm going to do a little bit more prep.

I'm going to.

I'm going to watch some of your documentaries.

And I turn on the Y and it starts.

I mean, this is.

I'm just saying how effective they are.

It starts and I'm like, oh, God, I gotta sign up for something.

But I can't right now because of my lot in life.

I can't.

And so I closed it.

So I didn't watch anything in preparing for it because it's too effective.

What you're saying of, like, when you say that, it's for you, it's because you represent this average person in the space of, like, we've got a taste for it.

We've done the 10k, then we went to a half marathon, then we did a 50k, and then we did the 50 miler, 100k, 100 miler, and when you have the taste that, you know, content like yours is that thing that, you know, making your case for more brand deals for you, you push over the edge into people to going and, you know, handing over their money to a race director, which we have a race.

This is a commercial part of the podcast.

Yeah.

Open range.

No.

Anyway, yeah, so I just think that's what, you know, you have clearly have plenty of evidence.

And here's more.

It's just that you've inspired.

You inspire people to go sign up for races, which is the best part of this community.

Well, why do we keep going back to that?

Well, like, why do we keep.

I mean, when you're running out there, like mile 64 of 100 mile race, you're not like, skipping through a forest.

It's painful, it hurts.

You're puking, you're on the side of the woods, you're, you know, like, you're, you're being nudged by your pacer to, like, keep moving forward, to keep one step forward.

And for some reason, at the end of all of that, you cross the finish line.

And maybe not right in that moment, but the next day, two days later, you're like, yes, let's do it all over again.

Yeah.

Like, why do we keep going back to that?

Well, for me, it's.

I don't have.

I have this internal person that I believe I am, and I don't have external evidence.

And so it's this thing I believe about myself that to me, I've so grabbed onto the 100 miler because it's external proof of who I believe I am inside.

And I don't have any way of showing it in my own head unless I go do a Hundred miler.

Yeah.

I've done businesses.

I've been entrepreneur for a long time.

I've done a lot of different things that.

But to me, I don't think of those things as mattering something about me going for 100 miler and even DNFing 8 out of 10 times.

But that is where I'm telling the story of who I am.

Why did you dnf8 out of the.

Where did I want to start, man?

Well, it's because I'm not very good at.

No, okay.

I. I had so my why never required a finish.

I could satisfy my why for running 100 miles without the finish line.

Interesting.

I didn't have until number 10, which was a documentary that Ben and I did together about Zion Hundred Miler last year.

My 10th effort was the first time my why required A finish line.

And then I.

Then the whole time, I never, it was.

There was never even a chance that I was going to say no.

And what was your.

Why prior to that?

My son had a tumor on his liver that had to be removed.

And it was like this.

I. I felt like I needed some sort of.

I didn't know how to handle the pain.

My pain of watching my son go through that I needed to suffer in some way.

Like, it was this.

I'm not saying it was healthy, but it was me saying like.

And my wife had just given birth to my second child.

It's like, so she's going through some pain.

My son had a tumor and it's like I was looking for something in the pain because I was healthy, I was able to run 100 miles or I was able to at least try, you know, and so I needed to get out there and feel.

I needed to go out and feel something for myself because I was by my wife's side, but she was the one going through all the pain.

I was by my son's side.

He was going through all the pain.

So my first 100 mile attempt was I was in that space of needing to feel the suffering for myself.

And so I got to mile 80 at the Zion Miler that year and it was just.

That one was just a mistake around things I didn't know about.

Water and a water bottle falling off the side of a cliff.

Jeremy Cox, I don't know if he's here.

He dropped it.

But, yeah, everyone has a story sometimes.

I just wasn't training.

I shouldn't have started.

But I thought, God, I'd rather DNF because I'm not ready than not start.

I was telling florists we lived for a summer in Amsterdam, which is 12ft below sea level, and I was signed up for Wasatch and I was like, no, I'm not going to do Wasach.

Then I thought, why not just dnf?

Who cares?

And I timed out.

I made it to Upper big water, mile 48 at the cutoff, and I thought I would rather DNF that than not have started.

So a lot of it is, yeah, I just needed to be out there suffering and finding the end of myself.

I wish the end of myself was more consistently on the other side of a hundred mile finish line, but I find the end of myself in the 20s, in the 20s and 30 miles.

But then this last one was, oh, yeah, my why is to finish.

That was my only why, was to finish a hundred miles.

And when I did that.

That was.

I was second to last place.

I was 35 and a half hours.

Zion has a very generous cutoff and I'm thankful for it.

And yeah, I want to be clear,.

That wasn't a judgmental question.

I was just genuinely curious.

No, I wouldn't receive it as that.

How's your son today?

He's great.

I mean, he's.

After that happened, we had this horrifying moment where they couldn't figure out what was on his liver for six weeks.

So he had pneumonia.

And then they said he has to be clear of pneumonia for six weeks before we can operate and we can't biopsy.

All we know is that his liver is completely consumed by these tumors.

But we don't know and we won't know for six weeks.

So we had this six week period when my wife was pregnant with baby number two of we don't know.

I mean, it was just this.

It's even hard to think about eight years later, seven years later.

Now, is there any crossover in that mentality of that ultra mindset of just like, keep putting one foot forward?

Yes, as a. Yeah.

Yes.

I mean, that's the thing.

So I often think, do ultras help me live my day in and day out life better or do I push really hard in my day in and day out life better so I can be a better ultra runner?

And really the answer is yes.

But ultra running, because I'm ambitious as an entrepreneur, I try things that are really hard and that's what I most prefer is to try things that are really hard or that may not be possible.

Sometimes they are and sometimes they aren't.

Ultra running is the ultimate in helping me.

So I don't care if I DNF 100 more times because I'm pulling from that over into trying to be a better dad, trying to be a better husband, a better entrepreneur.

There's a lot of people in my sphere that I have influence over with within that and it makes me better in all of them being able to put one foot in front of the other.

Yeah, I almost want to reframe.

What's your why to just why not?

Why not give it a go?

I am inspired by your story and like just people like you who just go out there and try different things.

I think being an entrepreneur is far more scary than going out there and run Wasatch.

Yeah.

Because there's a lot more at stake, clearly.

But.

But it also underscores, you know, maybe where you and I might align is that we all like this is this thing that we call life, and this is my cheesy moment here.

But we all, like, get one shot at this.

I mean, really, like, we all get one shot at this.

Like, I have somebody who was.

Who just got diagnosed with stage four colon cancer.

49 Years old, healthy, he's a running buddy of mine, and just, like, knocked their life, like, completely upended their life.

And it's just, like, now the focus just becomes about, like, how do we.

How do we make it another day, another week, another month?

So I don't know.

And in the wake of, like, what I saw in Los Angeles, with the wildfires and the devastation and people losing their lives, their homes, like, why not just take swings in life, you know?

I lead a very unconventional life.

My wife Hilary and I and our dog, Charlie Salami, we live in a tiny home.

We live very simply.

Our North Star is to just experience life in all the myriad of different ways, through travel, through community, through trying hard things.

And I think so far, that steered us in the right direction in us living our most authentic lives.

We'll never have hundreds of thousands of dollars, Will, you know, like.

But we've tasted that.

She's had a corporate past.

I've had a corporate past, and we.

We didn't find a whole lot of fulfillment.

That's us.

Like, that's our North Star.

Like, it's not for everyone.

But I do think, like, why not?

Yeah, why not try things and see where you land?

Yeah.

What's the worst that could happen out on the trail?

My favorite.

This is my favorite thing about it is that it's.

It's the great equalizer of all.

Like, when you're out on the trail and you're suffering and it's late in the race, whether it be you're suffering through a half marathon or a 10k or the 100 miler, there's just this thing that gets built out there that's in line with that of, like, you.

The people that you meet in the way that you meet them and the way that you connect.

I have a friend who's an evolutionary biologist named Alex.

And, you know, he was saying the same chemicals that are firing in your body late in a race build.

They're the bonding chemicals.

And so, like you, you're building these deep, rich bonds with people that bank accounts don't matter, like, none of the stuff that matters.

There's something about trail running that is the great equalizer to me in terms of suffering.

We're all getting beat up by it.

We're all working through our own thing.

We all have our own whys.

But it's, it's a, it's a powerful equalizer.

You really could be running next to a dirtbagger who lives out of the bed of his truck or a venture capitalist.

You just don't know.

But everyone out there is on equal playing field and none of that other stuff really matters.

One of my DNFs, I was running next to a guy who played for the Baltimore Ravens.

He was, oh really?

He, he was second string and he had just retired but he was like yeah man, I just want to just need to keep doing hard stuff.

I'm like wow.

And as which is harder, the NFL or running this 100 miler?

And at the moment he said the 100 miler I was like I'm stronger than NFL players.

Billy, thank you.

This is a lot of fun.

Thank you guys so much for coming out.